Why do millennials think they invented carpe diem? Turns out, there’s some science behind that. In this episode, Monica and Mary discuss the psychological concept of emerging adulthood. Participation trophy included, but not for what you think.

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Monica
Hey, guys, Welcome to The Manqué. It’s me, Monica Busch co hosted with Mary Stathos. Hello. There she is. She’s waving, as usual. Um, it’s been a couple weeks as per usual. I did not do a solo episode this week because I was sick for the third time in three months and just was collapsed in my bed and abandoned all of my hobbies and pleasures in life for yet another several days. Basically, um, but in any event, we’re here, and we’re happy to chat. Um, Mary, how are you doing?
Mary
I’m doing well.
Monica
Good to hear I am doing better. Okay. Although sniffling as we were just talking about offline, compulsively sniffling every time we pressed the record button for some reason, consistency is key. That is true. And we struggle in that realm, so hey, get it where we can find it. Um, I don’t have actually, I do have exciting things going on in my life. I got a new job. So that’s been preoccupying me aside from, like laying in bed and half praying for death. Um, so that’s exciting. And, uh, yeah. Do you have any updates that you would like to share with the class anything.
Mary
My graduation is exactly eight weeks away.
Monica
Oh, that’s huge. Oh, my goodness. A new condition. I’m writing it down. It
makes makes me happy to see things written down. And
Mary
my classes are explicitly online for the rest of the semester because of the Corona virus.
Monica
Yes. Okay. Yep. So that is actually dominating most of my waking life. I think you’re still. I feel like that’s all we’ve texted about primarily in the last week. Is the Corona virus updates? Yeah. Yep. I like Google constantly. Current a virus Massachusetts count. I’m constantly on the mass dot gov website, even though, like, I’ve literally only needed to do that one time for work. It’s just my own obsession. You also said that you had one of those experiences, and I think and I did as well where you went in to the store to buy, like, hand soap or whatever hand sanitizer. And there was nothing there. Did
Mary
you told me that? No. I went to buy a thermometer and they were down there away.
Monica
There were no thermometers. I thought You also said hand sanitizer like the other day. But no, I have it. Lever and out of hands open. I went to go buy son before work, and there was, like none Absolutely none there. Like, I didn’t think that that was gonna hit the suburbs, but apparently it very much house.
Mary
I think it’s hitting the suburbs worse.
Monica
You think so? I wouldn’t know. Because I haven’t avoided the cities, because to me, that seems disgusting. Yeah,
Mary
I live next to a city target and they get restocked every single day.
Monica
Jesus. Well, this Walgreens apparently doesn’t, cause this was, like, eight. In the morning and there was nothing there, and I was like, Okay, this bodes Well,
Mary
yeah. No. Yes. So the city is different, I guess. But yeah. No, it’s lots of things. They’re back ordered and gone.
Monica
At least you don’t have to leave your house. Except for yeah. I’m at the point where I’m trying to say homos much as possible. We went out for dinner last weekend to celebrate the new job, and then, like, I got sick two days later and was like, Oh, God, I should not have done that. We’re never going t o. I’m, like, hesitant to even order food in, um, from anywhere. For the record, uh, e read into that. What you will. I mean, I’m sure that’s not going to stop me when I’m, like, hungry and don’t feel like cooking, but anyways, current virus, um, you know that Tic tac sounds like it’s gonna run a time that’s been playing in my head only dear, I’m talking about
Mary
I have not been on tic tac in, like, two weeks. That is probably for the
Monica
best. I was just I think I mentioned that I was, like, rapidly scrolling through it as I was waiting for you to log on. And I was like, Oh, yeah, school. Uh, yeah. Get my fix. Get
Mary
it? I was like,
Monica
How many can I watch before she which was joking. Um, anyways, so you had the topic today that you wanted to talk about because Mary is so good at coming up with topics for this Podcast it You guys really? You owe a lot to her stuff? Um, I thought I was so fascinating. You told me about it through a homework assignment, but I’m gonna let you just sort of introduce it and basically take the reins, and I’ll interrupt you like I usually do.
Mary
Excellent. Okay, so today I wanted to you talk about sort of be idiom why it takes so long to grow up today. So Okay, help it last quietly. But he’s also you’re laughing?
Monica
Um, well, partially because I was literally thinking about this as I was rapidly scrolling through Tik talks because, like, you know how the algorithm adjust to you. And I like nose kind of your demo and what you’re interested in Yeah, it was showing me, like, nonstop people between, like, the age of 25 35 just like talking about how, like, millennials are the same millennials or that and like, complaining about growing up like not wanting to do chores. And I was just like, Wow, this really is everybody. And this is week. And then you were like, Let’s talk about emerging adulthood And I was like, All right, my brain
Mary
is there. Yeah, I think emerging adults is this firm. That was point by this psychologist, Jeffrey Johnson Arnett in 1995. And it’s basically a term that he felt needed to be creative. Thio describe the age group from 18 to 29 because they are so different than regular adults were given. This, like early adult that existed, started prior to that, um, so it’s kind of described Is the agent in between? So they are no longer an adolescent, and they’re starting to feel responsible for themselves, but they’re still really closely tied to their parents and their family. Um, now, also starting to question their personal agent be and that before this coin was, this coin was turned. This is great work. This term was coined, and this idea is really researched. It was pretty much out of that. You’re right. And he was developed by the time you were, like, done being an adolescent. Do you think it’s really interesting? Everyone before this was researched was basically like Okay, by the time you’re done being an adolescent, you have a sense of personal identity. And now what we’re really seeing is that shocking people in their twenties do not know who they are, like what they want in
Monica
life. That is like, I don’t even want to talk now. I’ll just let you keep going. I’ll interrupt later. Go ahead. I mean, I didn’t really have, like anything too specific to say. But what my first thought was like, at least like in our circles, you’re 26 and I’m 27. We’ve spent our entire life like in school, like even was. Soon as I like finish school, I started working in school and, like, working like jobs that were still felt like child jobs for the last couple of years, like things that can barely support me. And so it’s like everyone’s then still kind of in that same atmosphere that we associate with childhood. I feel like even when I was in grad school, like it’s just like this is all I’ve known since I was six and daycare before. That’s like I’ve always been in an institution where someone is, like, sort of taking care of me, and they’re always preparing me for this next step that never seems to come. So it’s like in our circles I feel like that makes a lot of sense because we didn’t, like, jump into like, a blue collar career when we were like 20.
Mary
Yeah, I think most people are not jumping into a blue collar career in their 20 and if they are. I just got hit, but in face time, I can’t, um we’re seeing is that they’re not making enough money to in a lot of cases, do things like, have a stable job or buy homes or have Children or get married. And so even people who are working right out of baseball or not like free of this visa life.
Monica
Yeah. Yeah, like a lot of people I know who even did that, like how to roommates for a really long time. And they’re just kind of like hanging out.
Mary
Yeah, and that’s I think what this phase is really viewed out, as in a lot of ways, is like the phase of, like hanging out, huh? Which is, I think, has kind of a negative connotation to it. But really, it makes a lot of sense that this is happening. And so when you look at things like the army or impatient levels of care places that are really rigidly structured, the twins get up. Instructor of the time you eat a structured what you’re doing during the day, a structure, something that’s really similar to that that doesn’t get the same kind of thought about like the discharge from it is school. Who? Oh, people don’t really step down from, like, an impatient level of care into back into regular life without some kind of step down program. Even like
Monica
from prison. Like you might go to a halfway house or something like that.
Mary
Yeah. And in the Army, what we see is that people integrate really poorly back into regular life. Yeah, Super do. Yeah. And oftentimes need to go into you levels of, like, care, like a partial program or something. Because they’re so not used to having zero structure in their life, you see, really high resembles of mental illness and just aggression. Depression?
Monica
Mmm. Mmm mmm.
Mary
In Italy, she productive lack of motivation because they’re not used to having their own time to structure for themselves in neither is this generation.
Monica
Mmm mmm mmm. Mmm. Mmm. This may be a bad comparison, but you know what? This reminds me of the movie castaway when Tom Hanks comes back from his island and he can’t sleep on his bed. He’s been, like, so used to living on his island that he has to lay on the floor because that’s like he’s been sleeping outside for so long that that actually just feels more comfortable. It makes more sense. Doom. I don’t know if that’s an unsaved analogy, but that’s about it. Reminds you of its like he couldn’t transition. He was like, Oh, God, uh, this is too much. This is too much comfort.
Mary
Yeah, I think like people and neatly just do really bad with transitions. Yeah, General, later that that’s why when you think about like middle school as a thing, it’s when you’re like you’re switching Thio. You’re switching from class to class, but you’re not switching, maybe for every class, and it’s a little less rigid and independent as high school. So there’s this transition time from elementary school to high school, where people are getting used to what they need to do.
Monica
I thought you were gonna say that. That’s why in middle school sucks because we were sick about it. Transitions.
Mary
Well, yeah, and it just it sucks for a lot of reasons, but that’s definitely one of them, where it’s like the first time you’re doing something different. But they offer that so that people can then go to high school and not be completely like, Oh, my God, What is happening to me?
Monica
I never really thought about why they did that, but that makes other sense that it’s recently and I was like, huh? I didn’t know that. Okay, good. That makes me feel better, because I’m like, Wow, that seems very obvious. You put that together,
Mary
but yeah. So when we think about, like being so bad at these transitions, we have been as a generation in school from the age that we’re four or even younger for some people, like three months old and daycare. Yeah, until we’re like for people who went to college 23 24 year Coles. Yep. That’s crazy to then be, like out you go into the world, become financially independent, live alone.
Monica
What? I was blew my mind about that. And I guess I always kind of just chalked up to me. Being like a weird little hippy dippy high schooler was the idea that, like you had to go from having this like, fluctuating schedule to all of a sudden, sitting in a chair for eight more hours a day. That was like an insurmountable problem to me. When undergrad was wrapping up That’s like some privileged, but, like just the idea of, like, not being able to get up and do things and likes change where you’re going and just have, like, a schedule that changes and have I don’t have people around you and be like, Okay, you have to sit at this desk for eight hours and you have to do work for eight hours straight. Was like, uh, are you kidding me? Like I thought, I literally thought that, like, I was gonna have a mental breakdown just from like the idea of having to do that is to get the hell out of me. Even when I first did it, I was like, Oh, my God, Like it through an internship, Um, as upperclassmen during, like, spring break or whatever. And then summer, I was like, Oh, my God, all right, 40 hours a week. I’m going to sit in this chair and I can’t go anywhere else like that also felt crazy. And I know that’s like, I don’t know. I feel like that’s kind of relevant to the kind of transitions you’re talking about, but me not the same. But it was like, Oh my God, like, how am I supposed to be prepared for this?
Mary
Yeah, And so I think when we think about how we have these transitions where people were in, like, an in patient level of care or prison, just step back and then integrated into the community. And then we see something that’s much shorter term. The school that’s still longer term, Like the army where we sea people be really poorly with the transition because there is not this step found program. And then we think about school. And so you went to graduate school. You refuse? Shortly after you went to under God.
Monica
Yet I took one year off between,
Mary
okay? And you were how old when you graduated from
Monica
come grad school 25.
Mary
And how old were you when you started going to day care?
Monica
No idea. Like 32
Mary
Okay, so you spent 22 years of your life in school? Yep. Which means that until you’re 44 years old, you will have spent more than half of your life in this, like, highly structured day today.
Monica
Wow. I’ve never thought about that. Holy shit.
Mary
So, of course, to three years out of that, it’s going to be incredibly hard for you. And most people toe have any idea what they’re doing with themselves.
Monica
And so that’s where he comes in with this concept. Arnett, Jeffrey Jensen Urn it
Mary
Jeffrey Jensen Arnett comes in with the idea of the emerging. It’ll yes, so there’s basically five features of the emerging adult. Lay him honest theeighty of identity exploration. So this is when young people are deciding who they are and what they want out of work, school and love. It is also the age of instability. No, three years after high schooler marked with this repeated, um, sorry are marked with repeated residents changes as young people either go to college or they live with friends or they live with their boyfriend or girlfriend. And, um, for the most part, this is these things sort of start to RePet better. 10 people are in their thirties when we think about people getting married and buying homes. Um, now that’s happening later and later. But for the most part, like 30 uses, like a safe age to say, like that’s where that stuff ends.
Monica
Well, you posted on social the other day, like this is you just renew your lease, right? Yeah. So this is like, What did you say it was? It was like, it’ll be the longest. You’ve live somewhere since 2016. Okay, that’s significant. When we stayed in our apartment in New York for two years, I was like, Wow, I haven’t lived anywhere for two years. And it didn’t. It had been like years, like a really long time, Like a least five or six years, if not
Mary
more. Yeah. I mean, when I think about I was counting college, I guess you’re not counting college. But that’s where the first time that I didn’t, like, move in and out of somewhere since I was 18 years old.
Monica
Yeah, I didn’t have dorm, so that was a little different for me. Um, but yeah, no, we’re in our second year in our home now, and I’m like, Wow, once we get to Lake December and beyond that, this will be the longest type of anywhere since. Oh, God. Uh, since middle school said yes since ninth grade, actually, because that’s when I first started moving around a lot when I was a kid. Which is insane? Absolutely. And say that’s
Mary
insane. Yeah, it’s crazy to being. Yeah, I moved more than once a year, every year since joining since seen.
Monica
That’s crazy. My friend Alison’s like that to you. I helped him. We’ve been to her apartment last June, and then I helped her move out, like two weeks ago. It’s crazy like I I can barely like nothing like me don’t have to get into that thick socks like, sucks my soul out of my body like doing it twice a year. People who have been out of dorms. I was always like, Whoa, that is a That’s a heavy lift.
Mary
Yeah, it was real. I hated living in dorms, but I’ve also hated moving in general. I’m so happy that I don’t have to pack up this apartment. I’m glad
Monica
for you. It’s also very cute, which also helps.
Mary
Yeah, it’s very cute. It’s very homey. I’m happy about it. Okay, so the next part of this is the age of self focused. So this is the first time that, um, emerging adults, they’re sort of freed of the parent in society. Director Virgin of schools is what we just talked about. So young girls, they’re trying Thio decide what they wanted to you, where they want to go and who they want to eat with before those prices get limited by getting married, having Children and having a career. So this is really the first generation that we’re seeing that isn’t really like gung ho about getting married, that they want to live their lives first, which I think is a really interesting take and I think has a lot to do it. Why there’s, um, a lot of negativity from older generations. I also feel
Monica
like there’s a lot of negativity from our generation, for like, there’s like there is no happy medium for like when people think it’s a good time, like there is no consensus between like millennials and boomers, for example, about like when is a good time to get married like, no matter what, you’re either doing it too soon or too late. Yeah, that’s all right now is someone who’s planning a wedding gets, like sometimes like because I we do wanna have kids. So, like, I think about that a lot and, like I think about like biologically like Oh my God really probably couldn’t have waited much longer if we wantto have several Children and, like, not do it in my forties. Sorta like Catholic late thirties. It’s like I don’t know, but I mean, yeah, I mean, my like we talked. I think he mentioned this. I remember Pete mentioned this on the podcast, but like I was in my aunt’s weddings when I was like, 11 or 12 and they both got married when they were about 23. And I’m 27 like, I don’t know, it’s only four years, but it feels like a lifetime of difference. Like by my age, they were, like, settle it like Settled slash, settling in tow. Like be warning to be mothers and, like they were really doing it. I don’t know. I felt so weird, like they were like, freshly out of college, like they didn’t do anything else between really college and, like getting engaged.
Mary
Yeah, I think now we’re seeing Is this like people feel like they haven’t done anything with their lives yet, and so they’re trying thio for us before, those sort of goal was still the American dream. And this is the first generation our generation, the millennial generation that feels that it’s not possible for them to do better in their lives than their parents. Yeah, I don’t completely
Monica
relate to that, though, which is, like, tricky when talking about this stuff for me because I understand it. But, like, I don’t relate to it necessarily cause I’m already doing better than my parents. E mean, I’ve surpassed my parents in, like, income in college, which was a crazy moment when it happened. I like registered it at the time. It was like, Wow, I’m getting paid at my internship more than I think My parents have probably ever been making this far as I could understand, like in their entire adulthood, which was insane. Um, and the fact that I’m I was like a young mother and that I’m like, only taking care of myself. And I pay my own bills and, like, I don’t know who managed to save like pennies. Um, but it’s still like something that they could never D’oh. So I mean, like, I understand it from a generational simply, but I don’t completely, really to that, like on a personal
Mary
level like it all, Ellen, I think one of the big things that it has to do with really much like you. You do own a home, so it’s different. Yeah. I think about this a lot with, like, I don’t know if I will ever be able to own a home,
Monica
which is normal, that that’s normal. That’s a freak thing. What happened here,
Mary
You guys, that stability And you like I don’t ever wanna live, like, far away from leg a city which makes it all the more hard.
Monica
Yeah, Yeah. We, like, made this decision when this happened and newest their combination things, but it was like, Yeah, we went straight from New York to like No, like a live in the suburbs of seven. Letter dogs run around outside.
Mary
Yeah. Which is the next one of these? Which is the age of possibilities, huh? Optimism reigns in this, um, and life phase. So many emerging adults. So this is from 99 5 Most emerging don’t believe they have a good chance of living better lives than their
Monica
parents did. Even if their parents divorce bill, they believe
Mary
the bill find a lifelong soulmate. However, more recent research does show that the millennial generation no longer feels that they can do better than their parents, which is what I was just saying. Yeah, but there is still this kind of optimism, optimism of like, striving to. And I think even if we’re not saying, I’m going to make more money than my parents for people who come from, like, middle class family specifically like, they’re probably not going to make more than their parents. Um, however, I think there still is this idea of optimism in the sense that, like they’re going to do more than their parents did of like here, not rushing into marriage and not having the same like as a generation. And I was like a group sort of as a whole, Not, um, having such a high divorce rate and not which we see that people get married later, tend to have lower rates of divorce versus like older generations that we’re dating for, like, two months, three months, 16 years now, hurting people in long term relationships. Living together before they’re getting married just decreases the level of divorces that are happening.
Monica
Yeah, like, who would have thought like if you actually got to know someone for a while and you work your people had, like, you know, like, fully developed, like frontal lobes that think the decision to get married wouldn’t be so insane? Um, yeah, I think I also feel like, sort of piggybacking on that that, like, we are our generation that also just like we value quality of life, like over a lot of other things. And we don’t think that, like having Like, I think that generationally speaking vaguely that like like like boomers and even like Generation X like they were like, Okay, I’ll work 60 hours a week, but I’ll be able to go on a vacation with my family in July, and that’s worth it. And I think millennials care more about, like, the richness of daily life. Like if we’re like, okay, we can’t afford to go to Europe. But, like we have, like, it comes at a cost on both sides. I don’t think necessarily wanna is
Mary
objectively you better.
Monica
But like we’re like Okay, well, we can’t afford to go to Europe, but like, we’re gonna dote on ourselves, like on the daily, a little bit more an indulgent, a daily basis And, like, make the weeks more bearable, like we’re less inclined. I think just sort of vaguely speaking, to be like, Okay, 80 hours a week, which is fine because we’ve got a savings account and more likely to be like, No, I don’t know his name’s account, but, like, I did get to go to this concert and I’ve been drinking these really good block. Tis unlike the daily life is like more tolerant roll. Like even I don’t have vacation and I don’t know, I feel like that impacts. Well, you were just talking about
Mary
Yeah, I think it does. And also work culture really influences that as well. That has millennials and like, this age group, is just more likely to be in this age of more image, mean and wanting better that they’re switching jobs more frequently. And they’re not staying in work environments that they don’t like. They’re not approving the same kind of like long term PTO and promotions that we’re allowing people thio, um, take, like, a month off at some point, or even like a week off at a time where we’re more likely. Do use a vacation day as a mental health day. Yeah, we know we’re not gonna crew that much. And that we’re probably not gonna have enough money in the job that we’re working to go on this extravagant accuser.
Monica
Yep, that’s relatable. And yeah, like I definitely know, like myself included. Have been inclined to quit a job. If I feel like I’m not being treated well enough like I I’m not unnecessarily inclined to, like stick out because in 10 years I might have a management position and maybe I won’t feel like I’m taking advantage of quite as much like we’re more likely to be like, No, there’s other options out there. Like I can go find
Mary
something else. Yeah, I quit my job. Like, went to grad school because I got a promotion without a reason.
Monica
Oh, my God, That’s the worst. Oh, my God. I hear about that happening all the time, people. It blows my mind. Like how stupid do you think we are?
Mary
Yeah, I was like, Oh, no, I’m done. Goodbye there. I got it. Yeah, And so what’s really interesting about this toe? Sort of go back Thio are hollow that to go back to our like dvt tomcats. Oh,
Monica
I thought you might cause we got off track. I was like Yeah, that’s probably, you
Mary
know, it’s kind of like kicking back off of this, but to talk about, like, the idea of a dialectic. So this is like a really an age of dialectics or we have, like, the happiest generation who have the most miserable generation. Simon immediately. Yeah, although there are a lot of struggles that air happening in this generation, there’s also people who are really using the resources that they have, and they have. Although you have this really decrease quality of life, you haven’t increased self awareness and in revealing this for change that we really aren’t seeing in generations prior, where people were sticking it out to maybe get a management position because it was worth it. And now we’re like, This isn’t worth it. I would rather be happy in the short turn. Yeah, um, people are saying, like, how can I improve my life much more? And then they were saying or because it’s, like, realistic that you can change your life in the short term now?
Monica
Yeah. Why? I mean, I don’t know that I don’t know what this is. Is this I don’t know if you can answer this in the context of what we’re talking about. Like you know that you like Why Why do you think I like to me? The Internet plays a huge role in this furred like us. Specifically,
Mary
I have a great answer for this. Actually, we are the generation that was given trophies for pretty speeding. Wow. Okay, coming in hot. Um, and this is not at the fault of us. This is at the fault of the generations before us. You felt that we should get trophies for participating.
Monica
Oh, my goodness. Okay, you’re gonna have to explain this to me, so you don’t sound like a crazy person.
Mary
Um, okay, So we were given, like, participatory turkeys for being mediocre. We were never really pushed. Thio do better in the same way that generations in the past, we’re only getting a words for being the best means that this is not to say that we’re a lazy generation or to say that we’re in unmotivated generation. But to say that we really want to be recognized for just, like, doing okay and that we don’t really see the value of being the best because it’s not really them and their value in saying like, I am what I am. And I’m not going to work myself to death to be the best. Yes. Now we’re this generation that says, like, I want to be happy and not just be the best. This is very
Monica
interesting coming from you and I, who are too highly competitive people, like against ourselves especially. Oh, we do strive to be the best year. And
Mary
I listen, I want to be the best at a lot of things. I wanna be the very best. I don’t want to be the hardest working person in my office
Monica
that Yeah, Yeah, that is death. That’s the sweet spot. That is definitely the sweet spot that Yeah, I have nothing to add. Great articulation.
Mary
So there’s this idea that Lee participatory trophies is like a paycheck. So why am I going to work 60 hours a week for a 40 hour week salary job? I’m already getting a trophy for participating and doing what I need to do. I’m doing doing mediocre at your job in 2020 is working 40 hours when you’re only supposed to work 40 hours.
Monica
Well, you just brought that home. Jesus. Yep. Okay, I’m totally with you on that. I feel the I feel that way all the time. I’m constantly like thinking like, Mm, I like I’m not getting paid enough to do this. Like that’s, like, risky to say which is fucked up, right? Because it’s like in theory, they should just be paying you equivalent to what they want you to be doing.
Mary
Yeah, And what research really shows? I don’t have this article up on a man feel like an idiot for not, but there’s we’re going with this. Last time I was over there was this guy who paid his workers what he felt like They? Yep, reserved. And he saw productivity increase without giving anybody a promotion. I’ve been
Monica
thinking about that since you said it too. May like that leg was burned into my brain when you said that. And I was like, Well, as I was going through this, like, anticipated change and younger
Mary
everyone at this software company started making $70,000
Monica
and he took a cut right to do that.
Mary
He took his He took a $1.3 million pay cut. Jeez, Elise. And he saw that everyone more people about homes, More people stayed late, More people had babies and more people cared about what they were doing. And we’re engaged in were participating in meetings and giving new ideas even though their positions didn’t change. This isn’t about us being lazy. It’s about us really feeling like we want to get. Won’t leave? Uh, yeah. And also just be
Monica
able to, like, live a life outside of work. Like I have known for a long time that I cannot be someone where work is my job and less unless, like, I am doing something of my own volition, like I have to feel very valued. Like I have to feel very valued for me to even consider a world in which what Ideo is like also something that I am willing to be consumed with outside of those 40 hours.
Mary
Yeah, and so what’s really interesting is so I don’t know if I talked about this before, but I’m doing an unpaid internship right now, which is great. But here’s my only pay. Jack is the reference letter that I’m getting at the end of this. I work so hard, huh? Yeah, I like have to. I have to. I’m nearly every single day. It could be like I’m making a $1,000,000 because this is, like, an invaluable to me to get a good letter of reference from this job,
Monica
right? Cause you literally need it to do the thing you’re studying about, which is what you care about. But like, Is that the logic,
Mary
though, for you that,
Monica
like, is it because it’s something you care about? Or is it because you literally need it to get a job? Like, do you understand that the distinction between I’m asking
Mary
I work 10 hours a week more than I’m expected. Thio.
Monica
Jesus Christ. And no one says anything
Mary
because I that’s the amount of work that I’m given by my seat.
Monica
Okay, right? Right. Yeah, because you’re you’re you’re, like, load increased, right?
Mary
So I’m not speaking up to say like, this is too much for me. And I’m not doing this thing that we’re saying that this generation does because I’m not because my like participatory trophy is no, something that I can like negotiate or leave you right. And so I think it’s really interesting till I kind of go back to that take insanely we are more likely to say, How can I improve my life like a student? Something is not like giving it for us. Like I got offered a job at this company and I said no because I don’t want to do this for any amount of money and was doing and credit because they have Thio and it’s okay, that’s over. I’m gonna be like I’m gonna do something better.
Monica
Yes. So I couldn’t quite understand it when you said that if you meant that. Like you’re working really hard because eventually it will lead to a paycheck that you meet another facility or whether it was because it was something that you were passionate about. But I think I understand the distinction now like that I would do it. Didn’t know how to vocalize that question.
Mary
Yeah. No, I don’t know what we’re doing. No supermodel. But, um, it’s interesting to think about this whole idea, and then So I think that kind of one thing that’s important to talk about, So in talking about the the generation that gave our generation participatory trophies and our generation, that is kind of like we want better. We want more I’m like the older adults that really gave us this setup to live The life that we’re living are really angry that it’s taking too long to grow up today. Um, but we’re really seeing in the research that if we wait longer where living sort of are the best years of our lives now,
Monica
Mmm God, that’s depressing.
Mary
It isn’t isn’t depressing because, like, this is really are like prime in that. Like we had the least amount of responsibilities that we will ever have in our life dilate instead of rushing to those responsibilities and then waiting to live out our sort of golden years when we’re elderly
Monica
in wine a bit now, yeah, that is true. No, I agree. I guess it’s also depressing Thio from that vantage point, think that, like things were only going down, that’s just sad to
Mary
me. And at the same time, for our generation, they may not go down hold the same way because we’re choosing better partners and we’re waiting longer to decide what kind of career we want. We’re reading longer to say Where do I wanna live? What do I want to d’oh how I like going to look so that it can look better in the long term.
Monica
Yes, that’s true. Plus, we eat Kale,
Mary
Anthony, eat kale and all the photos
Monica
if we D’oh! I have an avocado bagel two days in a row Yesterday and today It was very nice. I
Mary
just love three avocados. Go back on them,
Monica
so Oh, God, that’s the worst cheese or something in the fridge. I made this avocado mango salsa last night. Oh, so good. It, like, went on this barbecue chicken recipe from Christie taken because that’s all I do is good from Paris, their books but anyways
Mary
and rea dy aggress anyway, So I think one thing that’s important when we think about this is to think about Why Why is this the generation that does take so long to grow up?
Monica
I love the Y question.
Mary
You know what? Me to the wife is always my favorite part of this plan counts. Bring it Mary, Though in the 19 sixties in the 19 seventies, there was the technological revolution that changed the economy. So people were being educated for longer than ever before. And then in the seventies there was the in sixties. I guess there is a sexual revolution that made impossible tohave a sex life without marriage. Um made it okay to go live with your partners. And then there was the women’s movement that gave women and incentive to postpone marriage and the incentive for women to pursue a career. There was also the youth movement. It, um, sort of gave adulthood a bad name, yet sort of sad, like you should be a kid for longer. And so all of these things have really come bunched together to create this group of people that just don’t want to grow up and they want to be on tic tac complaining about adult life.
Monica
Yeah. Yes, we d’oh! You know, when I risen high school or middle school, I thought that the idea of a Peter Pan complex was a good thing. Explicitly thought that was a good thing. And that’s very ironic to me, given how our generation has developed in the years since I was in middle
Mary
school and I would kind of challenge you to say, like, is it a bad thing? I don’t think it’s a
Monica
bad thing, but I think that there’s also like there’s, I think there’s like different versions of it because like then there’s like the man, baby, you know, like there are. It’s complicated because there are people like you and I who are like we like to do, I think probably a lot of the same things that we did when we were teenagers, like we like to, like, hang out on a weekend and, like, take a bunch of photos and, like, you know, drink iced coffee and just kind of like chill and like, be creative. But then there’s like the kind of people who, like, can’t go grocery shopping e about that. And I think that, like there’s a spectrum there between, like, enjoying the things that you enjoyed his youth and then, like never actually developing the skills that you need to like, get through seven days a week. And I think that the Peter Pan complex can kind of cover both ends of that spectrum.
Mary
Yeah, and I think it does. And it’s funny because, like I’m sitting here in my three room apartment that I share with my two pats and 70 cat posters in my tide I swept.
Monica
It was your apartment looks like appropriate for your age. It’s like it’s not like you’re surrounded by, like posters like Like you said posters just out and you’re not sorry about, like movie posters like taped to the Walls like is what I imagined when I said that like, you’re really look like a college dorm. It
Mary
doesn’t look that you call a storm now, and I have worked hard to make sure that it does not. But I I do think it’s interesting because I I don’t think of myself as like an adult at all,
Monica
right. That’s the thing, though, isn’t it? Like even though you are acting like one, you don’t think of yourself is one. I feel like that is like a thing with millennials and like, That’s what a lot of Tic Tac videos are. It’s like people are just like I don’t want to do my dishes, but it’s like a girl. You’re like paying rent and like paying your phone bell and like you’re driving a car every day like keep alive in the adult, even if you’re like, not good at tidying
Mary
up. Yeah, and I think again, just hire back to the DVT podcast. I think we’ve really are seeing this generation that lacks basic skills.
Monica
Yes. I mean, like, that’s like wanting the boomers air right about
Mary
way. D’oh! But we’re not lacking this kind of skills that they’re saying that we do. We lack a lot of, like problem solving skills and frustration, tolerance skills and, like the skills that their generation did not see just because they did not have neither. And now, like, they’re all miserable rooms. And we watched them grow up to be miserable crumbs, and we’re like, we don’t want to do that, but we don’t know what we’re doing. So we’re gonna, like, halt ourselves here.
Monica
Yeah. I mean, like, my parents aren’t boomers there, Gen X, but like, that’s definitely true between, like, me and them. Like I definitely have, like, position my entire life around, like, how could I not end up in the position my parents are in, like, emotionally alone, let alone like any other area, like I was like, I don’t want to be like going to a job that I hate just because I have to do this to support some kids that I thought were a good idea to have it like the age of 20 and that’s been like a driving force in my life, if not the driving
Mary
force. Yeah, it’s It’s an idea that I’ve been talking about actually a lot in therapy of, like being, like, more self aware then, like my parents were, I have a number of issues. Yes, like how I’m like taking this up to sort of, like, conceptualize what’s going on in my life and, like, move on from it like this has been like, I’ve been seeing the same therapists like every beat for, like, six months, and this is all we have done. It was like, just like, how do I conceptualize myself in relation to myself only and not in relation to like my life?
Monica
Dude, I have been thinking about that outside of therapy because I haven’t been in therapy in a little while. But that is like something I was. I’ve been thinking about that, too, Like I don’t want the rest of my life to be me overcoming my childhood. If that does that, like, apply to what you’re saying? Yeah, yeah, like I don’t want it to, like, rule the rest of my life, and I’m already at the point where I’m like by this fall I will have been out of my parentshouse for 10 years. That blows my friggin mind, But still, I’m like, trying to get over it. And I’m like, Okay, I don’t want to live like this. Her, like this has gotta
Mary
stop. Yeah, And I think what you see with a lot of like mental health related things is that as transitions end in people’s lives, so this is sort of the end of a lot of transitions for you would be like this year one like your You have stuff going on in your
Monica
Yeah, we’re like making this house livable. And I’m getting married, both your three big ones.
Mary
I didn’t want to say getting married, and I’ve already said
Monica
it like several times. I’ve never come out on social media as being engaged, but, like I have definitely mention it on the podcast. I think it’s it’s kind of an anti joke with myself that it’s the only place I’ve talked about it.
Mary
Okay, I don’t say this because I know she hasn’t talked about it on social media. I would not merge it said it on your
Monica
No, I have. Yeah, I haven’t. I’ve mentioned it in, like, asides and like other things on monkey, but it’s always like a little parenthetical aside that’s like in just indirect. Uh, it’s like a joke with myself,
Mary
but so I feel less bad. Bigger fight. All right. So, yeah, as you’re getting married and you’re getting settled in your home and like, these transitions wrap up that late as stability increases like mental health increases with it in a lot of ways,
Monica
that’s crazy, because since I’ve been preparing to, like, switch career wise, I have felt like, obviously the euphoria of being like, Oh, this, like place wants me to work here. But also, like, I’ve had that thought consciously like, Oh, I like him a little like significantly less stress that I was like a month ago. I have not been having an inkling of a depressive episode with last like, a bit of time. And I’m like, Oh, wow, this is like me yearning for just basic stability, which is not unique to me. This is just like a human thing. Well, probably exacerbated by other shit, but like that’s been going through my mind a lot, too. And that has also made me think about like what we were just talking about. Like like constantly living your life, kind of in relation to other periods where I’m like, how much of this is? I have no trauma related. And how much of like my when I say this, I mean mental health issues and just, like pension for depression and anxiety, like how much of it is related to straight PTSD and how much of it is also purely situational and just being a millennial who, like, doesn’t have controller suitability at all?
Mary
Yeah, and I think, like in a lot of ways, is probably both mental hole can be exacerbated or mental illness rather committee exacerbated by Billy Stress of this early adulthood life, Um, and like all of the world changes and I think it’s funny, you’re saying like you’re transitioning to a new job. But I remember a few months ago when he thought about, like, transitioning to a new job, and you were more stress than you had ever been because you were acknowledging it. And I think that was really what the transition was for you is that acceptance of meeting a new job.
Monica
That sounds right, and it doesn’t help that like the one I was in, I’ve not been in for very long. So I felt very guilty. And that’s like a thing with our generation with the switching jobs, like I felt very guilty, like, even though I felt that even though I basically I mean, like, I don’t know how say I needed more resources, I needed more support, toe like envision myself staying with the company for a very long period of time. It was like it was guilt, like, Oh, but I haven’t done my time here. It’s like I haven’t earned my right to, like find something that fits my life better and my professional goals better, which is like, I don’t know, that’s not a good place to be. And I feel like that’s very millennial, blah, blah, blah as well. You think like maybe someone has decided that, like were younger millennials, which I think is like, interesting to acknowledge. Do you ever think about that?
Mary
Yeah. My sister is three years younger than me, and she’s Gen Z
Monica
Uh, yeah, Caleb is my little brother. I mean, they’re twins, but I talked to Caleb a lot more about this kind stuff. He is 65 or six years under them. You, depending on the year. And he’s Gen Z. And that is weird to me because, like you with your sister were technically the same family generation. But like two completely different cultural generations, that’s insane. That blows my mind.
Mary
It isn’t saying, and it’s interesting. I identify a lot more strongly, I think with, like the Gen. Z starts. I knew millennial.
Monica
Yeah, yeah, I feel like I identify with, like, a lot of their cultural interests in Lake the the nihilism that they like, express and joke about, but also seem to sincerely believe
Mary
Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this like, I think that’s one of the reasons why I, like take talk, came out. I was like, This is
Monica
hilarious and good, whereas like older millennials were like I don’t know, that’s for babies. And I was like But I’m baby, baby, Uh but yeah, no. Yeah, but I
Mary
think that’s like worth mentioning because I listen to a lot
Monica
of podcasts that are like older millennials and some boys listening to their perspective, and they’re all like almost 40 and I like relate to them. But I also feel like they’re my aunt’s Bush. One of those friends are my answer, kind of in that weird because of Gen X older millennia. But, um, I don’t know. I just feel like that’s worth acknowledging. So if anyone’s listening to this and they’re like, Wow, you sound like a bunch of babies, it’s because from a millennial perspective, we kind of are,
Mary
Yeah, we are baby millennials. That’s pretty much the juice of all of this.
Monica
So, like, what should people take away? I mean, obviously there’s the facts about it, but like, to me, it kind of seems like there’s a level of comfort and under in, like recognizing that this is a phase of life that, at least in some fields, has actually been acknowledged and that there are patterns here and that, like, even though we kind of feel chaotic, like we’re not alone in this experience. To me, that’s very soothing.
Mary
So there are a few big things, and there’s also there is one thing that I feel like in summary to this. It is very important to talk about. This is Onley applicable toe white people.
Monica
Oh yeah, that’s a big one.
Mary
Um, and I do feel like that’s really important to acknowledge. This is, and it’s actually so in a lot of minority user from more collectivist cultures where they never experience emerging adulthood at all, because the expectation is that they live at home until they’re married. And so, although they may feel, pulls in certain ways about this, they’re not living in the same types of transitions because they don’t have the offers to teach you. So I feel like it’s very, very important to acknowledge that when we’re talking about emerging adulthood, this is, um, the group of people that only applies in all cultures does.
Monica
Would you say that this applies like very conservative cultures in general? I mean, like, I’m even thinking like Mormon cultures are like very conservative, like evangelical cultures, where that’s also still kind of expected. Any collectivist culture urea. Okay, that’s interesting. That makes a lot of sense that I’m glad that you said that,
Mary
and I think that I think the existence of this can add like in the context of larger society, can make this really difficult and to make it more challenging, too, being a collectivist Poulter because the expectations you’re being pulled in two different ways, like the way that your friends from individual culture they’re being pulls on your family is pulling you, um, like in the age of social media and then this generation, it is really challenging to not feel like you should be living in the majority. Yeah, or like the perceived majority, so that it’s something that I do feel like is really important to do. Um then the other thing is that not everyone prospers in this phase, and I think we are talking about this in a way that’s really sort of fun, and it’s exciting for us. And we’re both college attic college educated either with a master’s degree or really close toe, a master’s degree and this Ben, I think, and up and down time for both of us. But I think an overall net positive for us, and for some people, they do not prosper in this developmental sees. The transitions are really challenging in the struggle with homelessness, and they struggle with the ending of really hard relationships. Or this is also the age where mental illness is most likely to develop like very severe mental disorder. So it’s not always like fun and self exploration in the same way that we experience self exploration. From a really privileged standpoint,
Monica
that’s a really good point. Yet no, you and I like for all of our struggles, we do have kind of a clear direction, at least for like what we’re aiming for.
Mary
Yeah, and I think, well, labels worked really hard to get where we are. It doesn’t discount the fact that we pull hod incredible supports to get us where we are.
Monica
Oh, absolutely. I mean, like, I think it’s fair to say that neither of us could have made it this far if it wasn’t for the people in our life like making it very possible in, like high encouraging us, enabling us maybe at times forcing us to stay on this like very specific path. And if I didn’t have to support system that I was like, how did my twenties I literally like this. I wouldn’t be functioning. There’s no way I would certainly not be doing what I’m doing now.
Mary
Yeah, same and I I really want to acknowledge that we’ve been able to prosper in this space, really probably exclusively because of that and in the options of those supports, this becomes so much harder.
Monica
Absolutely. I mean, yeah, there’s nothing to really add to that because obviously, I think we know exactly what we’re talking about. You know, we have friends and no people who are not prospering in the same and it’s sex. And yeah, that’s all I can say about that. Um, so, like, do you have any advice for people who are circling in that situation? Like I mean, what do you like? Is there like any like, Is there advice for this age of adulthood? If you aren’t prospering, or is it just, like, try to get through it? Or
Mary
I mean, they’re so much like toxic positivity that happens in the world of, like, just get through it. It will get better. And when a lot of pieces, it really doesn’t get better. Um, my biggest advice is like get the help that you need you and it’s hard and it’s also expensive. Um, there are a lot of options for getting affordable. Their pee. If you live in an urban area and you know it. It’s much more challenging. Um, but I think it’s really hard. This is a really hard phase of life for a lot of people.
Monica
It ISS Yeah, I know. I just I feel bad sometimes. Like acknowledging that problem and not having a solution. I mean, not that we can have one, but I guess, like it’s like, Wow, if we’re gonna, like, acknowledge it like this really does, like, totally stuck. For some people, it’s like, Is it is it good to just hear people say that or like, is that productive? I don’t know. I mean, that’s just like a sincere question, not necessarily for you, I guess. Also for our listeners to like What do you do like? Is it better to like here? People like us acknowledge that, like sometimes this, like life is a suck or like what do you d’oh, I don’t know.
Mary
I think it would be personally naive for two Wait, wait CIS gendered, very privileged, college educated 26 27 year olds to offer a solution to someone who’s really certainly yeah, so it’s I think it’s important to be able to sit with the discomfort of saying Lee. There is not an easy answer to this. I think that in itself is an important takeaway.
Monica
Yeah, I can agree with that.
Mary
Not too light. End this on
Monica
it down. We’re usually, like on a down note. I think our podcast is often are up. Note. It’s a farce. Monkey is concerned. Um
Mary
um but yeah, to kind of sum up. The whole emerging adult is a hole. We talked for quite a bit and jumped around a lot. Um, this is like an each group that whether they’re struggling, your prospering or not directly involved in this group. Emerging adults want a lot of life. They want a well paid job. They want something that’s meaningful. They want lasting bonds of their relationships. They want strong friendships. They want, um, great partners. Um, and this is not always possible to get, um but we just want to be happy. This is like in a troupe that wants to be happy. They want to you. I expect a lot out of life, and yet they want you get what they’re asking for.
Monica
So to be clear, like this emerging adulthood theory, does this really only apply to generations? like who have come of age 95 later, Like in 1995. Later.
Mary
This is the millennial generation and leader.
Monica
Okay, so it, like, specifically applies to our generation. Yeah. Okay, that Okay, that makes sense. Because when you’re first telling me about this a while ago, I thought like, Oh, wow, like I feel like, so soothed by hearing this. But I also thought like, it sounds like he’s exactly describing millennials, But I couldn’t quite parse whether that was because he was exactly just riffing millennials or whether he was describing something, but just also fits money. Lt’s because we’re in that age
Mary
group. Yeah. So, generations prior to us this this issue did not exist.
Monica
Okay. Yes, I make sense, Lee. Yeah, because like we’re talking about, Like God, I’m 27. At my age, my parents had three kids me and the twins, which is really mind boggling and like, Wow, holy fudge. Jesus. Christmas. Yeah, yeah,
Mary
My mom had go me and my sister, but I’m shoes my age wild.
Monica
Wow. Just like the level of responsibility that that requires, Like, hi. Wow. I like things sometimes. Like, Wow, what is my life gonna be like, Wanna have a child? And I, like, can opt for Adam having already had one for, like, several years, I just all the power to them, I mean, for making it through because that I have so much respect for how hard that was at this point. Like,
Mary
yeah, I can’t remember a lot of work for me to care for my cats. I was about to say that I’m fast, too. I hate when people make
Monica
that analogy, but like, it is an analogy in some ways. So stuff it
Mary
I I’m not saying it is the same amount of work to care for a child that it is secure for a pet. I am saying I could do no more than I’m doing right now.
Monica
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Yeah. I’m like, tending to their wants and their needs live alone. Like the things that they need to like, have enjoyable life. You push your trouble there, it’s different. But God, all right. This was, like, so interesting to me. I just when you pose this concept to me, like based on your homework assignment, I was like, Oh, my God, I just I don’t know, Like I said it like I’m being redundant, But I was like, Whoa, I can’t believe that, like, someone has actually going that outside of, like, the think peace bullshit that we’ve been inundated with its now for like, 10 years at least about how, like, we’re just lazy and we have no direction, et cetera, et cetera. Where we going to college? Why did we think that we need to enjoy your jobs? Why don’t we just settle down
Mary
happy These immediately got Cassidy? Yeah, Chastity on. And it’s funny because you know what I think?
Monica
What I think is sort of insufferable about our generation, though, is that like we sort of act like plea. Each one of us, I think, tends to act like we’re the 1st 1 to come up with these ideas about ourselves, like we’re the first ones like we use think that, like we’re the first person to be like no, life should be enjoyable and, like every day should have value. And I think that maybe maybe that is like one of the things that makes us so annoying to other generations. I don’t know, because it’s hard for me to point to a cultural Touchstones that, like, made us think that way. So it always kind of feels it feels spontaneous until you take a step back and you look at the theory like this near like, Oh, wait, no, this is not spontaneous. This is like, Ah, whole generation having a a shift. Like there’s a cultural shift that’s happening in the context of an entire generation.
Mary
Yeah, I also really like the history piece of it. It’s like, this is a cultural trip that was really coming.
Monica
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I really wrote all those revolutions and they were talking about in the movements, and I was like, Whoa, you’re absolutely right. Like that is definitely, like the building up of momentum
Mary
there. And I think we dated two contacts is helpful. Yes, Yes. We’re not just this. Like, we’re not this lazy generation like you built this. You guys did this. You did. This literally didn’t. It’s got
Monica
So you’re not protesting. The Vietnam War was going to be the end of
Mary
it. Well, hello. Look at us now. We’re on tic tac. Brody with podcasts were
Monica
making names about Corona virus. Yeah, we’re making podcasts. Oh, my God. I love it. Um, okay, I feel like this is this is the good note to leave it on everybody. And there’s the upturn. Let’s wrap it up. All right, you guys. This was another installment with Monica and Mary on the monkey. As always, you can follow us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook under Monkey magazine. I may end Q u e magazine. Um, we Is there another social media and forgetting? No, those were the only ones media. So submit to us. That would be good. Um, we are a literary culture magazine zem sort of hybrid thingy. And we accept submissions that are not fiction and fiction. We also accept visual art. We don’t get a lot of it, but we are open to it, and we do publish it when we get it, and it meets our criteria. And also, if you were doing listening to us, this is kind of like what we d’oh. For the most part, it’s Monica and Mary talking about some topic that we lately talk about from like a science ish perspective or lake, if not science. And like, there’s like, a concrete topic and then the talk about our own lives. Sometimes there’s a little more of each or the other. I usually do, like, offshoot solo. Many podcasts, usually about books. Because that’s what we talked about around here. If you made it this far. Mental health and books, I think has become more or less our brand at this point. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, if I’m doing it, which is basically just we talk about the two things that we have. Master’s degree. Oh, um, and yet here we are. And I
Mary
think I think we’re out. Well, yeah, yeah, we’re out. And they were out.

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